Wednesday, August 31, 2016

On Fat Shaming in the Vegan Movement...

I am in the midst of writing an article about the diet industry for this lovely publication and it’s one that will cover many facets of the climate around weight loss and body image. As I often do when I am looking for a variety of thoughts on a topic, I posted on my Facebook page, seeking perspectives on the topic of fat-shaming: Is it justifiable? Is it effective? Although I know this is a sensitive and provocative topic, I was still unprepared for the outpouring of very heartfelt and gut-wrenching responses to my general query.

On the thread, people wrote about the deep embarrassment and estrangement they experienced at the dinner table as their siblings snickered at them for getting second helpings. People wrote about lingering resentment towards parents, grandparents, relatives, classmates and others who pointed out their size in a derogatory way, whether it was intentionally mean-spirited or occurred under the pretext of being well-intentioned. People wrote about this specific kind of stigmatization triggering a response of eating in isolation, where they ate tucked away in their rooms, or fostering a habit of bingeing in the middle of the night with a carton of ice cream in a darkened kitchen, reinforcing their shame and secrecy around eating. People wrote about how they avoided physical checkups to not expose themselves to shaming from their doctors. People wrote about how being demeaned because of their size as children and teens – sometimes just once, sometimes persistently – likely resulted in subsequent battles with serious eating disorders.

Of the dozens of people who responded and well over one hundred comments, not one person said that as a result of being “called out” for their weight, something positive resulted. Yes, this is just anecdotal: Facebook surveys are not done in a laboratory and I am not a researcher. However, the response is strongly backed up by the emerging evidence that underscores how ill-advised it to create a stigma around size, both from the perspective of weight loss and the psychological damage. Studies on the topic are new but they are consistently indicating that shaming experiences are associated with decreased motivation and with the adoption of less nutritious dietary practices. In other words, when exposed to scolding or insulting messaging, many people exposed to it adopted the kinds of behaviors associated with weight gain.

If we know that the act of shaming is not one that offers positive net results, we will have to admit that disparaging someone based on his or her size is simply mean. If it’s not effective, what is its other purpose? It may make those who issue the deriding comments possibly feel superior or helpful, depending on whether or not they are familiar with or accepting of the research, but make no mistake, it is not beneficial. Often, the messaging overflows with the misogyny and objectification of our dominant culture as well, whether it is overtly spoken or not. In fact, the sexism of our mainstream culture is inextricably and necessarily intertwined with the rampant culture of body-shaming that surrounds us. It is estimated that 90% of people struggling with eating disorders are female
and, according to filmmaker and speaker Dr. Jean Kilbourne, the priming for disordered thinking around the female body starts young: a survey of fourth grade girls showed that 80% were on diets. The suicide mortality rate of people with anorexia is thought to be among the highest of all psychiatric disorders.

We know this about the general population engaging in fat-shaming: what does it say about vegan advocates when we participate in the same behaviors in pursuit of some converts? We know that the research affirms that it is not an effective form of advocacy. We know that it contributes to self-loathing in a way that that could prove to be fatal.
Even if it were effective, should a community that is founded on principles of compassion and justice be perpetuating messages that could have such dire consequences?

So a possible mental checklist to ask yourself before you give dietary advice to anyone in regard to weight loss…

1. Was this advice specifically solicited from you?
2. Are you from a professional background in which your advice would be appropriate and expected?
3. Are you knowledgeable in the most current research regarding persuasive motivation? Are you trained as a counselor?
4. Do you have a relationship with the person with whom you’d like to offer advice, for example, a close friendship or a professional engagement, in which you would fully understand the person’s background and challenges?
5. Are you able to give advice without using a fear- or shame-based approach?
6. Everything is moot if you cannot honestly answer #1 in the affirmative.
7. Even if you can answer #1 in the affirmative, you must still tread very, very carefully.

If you answer no to any of these, seriously consider if you should be dispensing dietary advice.

Last, can we honestly present veganism as a panacea for obesity? How about the different iterations of a plant-based diet – low fat, fruit-based, high-carb, whatever: what are the consequences when something that already seemed so difficult and socially isolating to so many just got saddled with a bunch of restrictions? What happens when we intertwine our social justice movement with the language and culture of dieting, something has so many harsh and regressive associations in so many minds?

A plant-based diet can offer some real physical benefits, especially in the realm of cardiovascular health and the many advantages of eating a plant-rich diet that is low in saturated fats. As vegans, though, should we assign ourselves the role of diet coach-slash-drill sergeant? I don't have my answers yet but my thought right now is that unless we are very mindful and sensitive about the misogynistic, hateful messages popular culture saturates us with, we should seriously question if this is in the best interest of individuals and the vegan movement.

Friday, August 19, 2016

Talking Trolls with Dr. Casey Taft...

On Friday of last week, John and I were talking about this-or-that trolling comment of the day (it honestly happens so much, I don’t remember the specific incident) and John had the brilliant idea of Troll Week. From there, it all kind of came together. We’ve spent the last week mining the depths of our social media to bring a new winning (?) comment to light each day and have just generally explored the idea of online trolling. Monday morning, I thought about capping the week off with an interview with Dr. Casey Taft, Professor of Psychiatry at Boston University School of Medicine, co-founder of Vegan Publishers and author of the widely acclaimed Motivational Methods for Vegan Advocacy: A Clinical Psychology Perspective. As an internationally recognized expert in the study of trauma, Dr. Taft understands the importance of acknowledging and ending our violence towards other animals as a way to build a more compassionate world. He will also be joining me next week as my featured Vegan Rock Star. I am so glad that he could join us this week on such short notice and share his professional and personal insights and wisdom with us.

First, how would you define a "troll"? 

A troll is someone who posts only to get a rise out of others. 

Are there any obvious markers of trolling behavior online?  

The most obvious marker is if they frequently post "BACON" in all caps. 

What if it's not all caps? Just kidding. Is there anything else that strikes you as an obvious sign someone is engaging in trolling? 

It's kind of hard to put it into words, to be honest. One needs to feel things out and determine whether or not the person is making an honest attempt to engage in discussion, or just attempting to inflame a conversation.

Conversely, what are some more subtle strategies of trolls? 

More subtly, some trolls will attempt to derail and sidetrack a discussion in an attempt to take it away from an important ethical issue. For example, rather than discuss the fundamental question of whether we have any need to be killing and consuming non-human animals (we don't), a troll would like to change the conversation to focus on plants rights or the diets of early humans. This way, the troll and their target can engage in pointless debate for hours while never discussing the important issues. 

I see vegans falling for this a lot, the moving of the goal posts. I do myself when I'm not paying attention as well. What do you recommend doing as soon as you notice this happening? Just bring the conversation back? Is there any advantage to pointing it out, like "I see what you're doing there"?

Yes, I recommend bringing it back to the core ethical issues and avoid going down that road to nowhere. 

Knowing what you know about human psychology and motivation, what strategies do you recommend for being able to shift a trolling comment into a more meaningful interaction that could result in a positive outcome, for example, a person seriously considering what you have to say? 

If we are talking about online, I think it's really important to keep in mind that our audience is larger than the individual troll we're interacting with. Often, there are many other "lurkers" who are witnessing the interaction, and our response to trolls can make a big difference in how we are perceived. It's a good rule of thumb to never give in to our inclination to jump down the troll's throat. If we can respond assertively and non-aggressively, we can show others that we are fully rational and composed when we present our vegan view. There will also be times, however, when the discussion has reached an impasse and we will just have to let the troll know that there isn't really any point in continuing an unproductive conversation. 

Great point and this leads to my next question: Many of us struggle with wanting to get the last word in even when we know that it's futile. When should you know that enough is enough and there isn't the likelihood of a transformative dialogue with someone? 

This is really the challenge for us advocates: to learn to diagnose the situation and determine our best approach and when to call it a day. When it seems that both people in the discussion have stopped listening and are just trying to argue their point of view, that's a good sign that the discussion is not productive. 

Have you had any experiences that come to mind where you wrote someone off as a troll but were pleasantly surprised? What do you attribute that turnaround to?

I really try not to do this and I work to give everyone the benefit of a doubt, but I see others make this mistake all of the time! So often I see others assume that someone is trolling, probably because they're burnt out from dealing with so many of them. They come to assume that anyone asking a somewhat naive question is just trying to piss them off. This is something that I teach my patients as a psychologist; we should try not to assume the intentions of others, and if we assume anything, we should assume the best in their intentions. 

I see this a lot too, especially on social media. People might be asking a question, not to undermine or get a rise out of anyone, but because they are genuinely curious and I've seen vegans can get very aggressive and angry with their questions. Most people don't realize how much passive-aggression and trolling vegans receive so they write us off as a bunch of really angry people. I think it's a good rule of thumb to take give people the benefit of the doubt if you don't know any better at least at first. Is there a good way to let your fellow vegans know that they should chill out? Is modeling a better example our best tool for this? 

There may be times when it is a good idea to say, "Let's hold on! I think John is sincere in wanting to know more about this. Let's give him the benefit of a doubt." Other times I will just delete the negative comments and try to engage directly with the false troll.

Let's talk about real life, in-person trolls! From family members to co-workers, many of us have to deal with people who undermine and insult us and what we stand for in life, some who are passive-aggressive and others who blatantly attack. Many of us who are activists have also had the experience of the "drive-by" troll, those who use the hit-and-run approach of saying something like "Get a life!" as they speed-walk past us at a protest. I know that this is a HUGE topic, but do you have any advice for dealing with an in-person troll? Does it differ from how you'd approach trolling from a stranger online? 

I think this depends on who the person is and how important it is to us if we want a continued relationship with them. Sometimes we need to decide that it's not healthy for us to continue to interact with someone who we feel is attempting to bully or upset us, and we need to set boundaries and limits. Other times, if it's someone who we want a continued relationship with, we need to find ways to express to them how their behavior makes us feel, and hope that they will listen to and validate us. In all cases, though, we have to make sure that we're really taking care of ourselves and are not allowing others to abuse us. That's obviously not good for us or for the animals who we advocate for. 

Self-care is so important for sustainability. So another question for you: what is an example of vegans trolling? When, if ever, is it justified? 

I will tell you a secret. I actually troll non-vegans on occasion. The way that I do this is to post provocative things on social media. They are always truthful, mind you, but I know that it will shake up some folks. For example, if we post something to the effect that one cannot claim to be an animal lover while eating animals, we get a big backlash on our page from dog and cat lovers. The reason we do this is because some people really do need a bit of a jolt of reality for them to question whether their behavior matches their beliefs. Secondly, when we do this, our posts go a lot more viral because of all of the angry comments and shares, which then causes our posts to show up on the newsfeeds of their friends. I know for a fact that we've helped many people go vegan as a result of our troll posts because we get many messages from those asking for help in their transition after such posts. 

I guess I don't call that trolling but being provocative. Potato, potahtoe and all that. Okay, last question. Burnout is such a real danger to vegans: do you have any general mental health tips for those of us who engage with the public as animal advocates? Sometimes it can feel so soul-crushing. 

Yes, try not to let yourself go to that dark place where you feel like everyone sucks. I think most advocates know this place I'm referring to. When we don't set boundaries and limits, when we don't take good care of ourselves, and when we don't know when to take a break from the trolls and the conflict, that's when we go to that dark place. Self-care in animal advocacy may sound cliché but it's really important if we are going to be effective advocates. It can be hard to give others the benefit of a doubt when we're in that dark place, and it's also hard to join with others in helping them change if we think that everyone is terrible. 

Thank you, Casey! I so appreciate your time and all you do! Thanks for participating in Troll Week. :)

Wednesday, August 10, 2016

An Open Letter to Tyson Ho, Offended Pitmaster…


Dear Mr. Ho,

I promise I will be mature. I promise I will not refer to you as an (arm)pitmaster as I did on my Facebook post as I have cooled off a bit and as I have nothing really against armpits per se as they serve an important and useful function in the world. Some consider the axilla an area on the body worthy of fetishizing. This is neither here nor there. I just didn’t want to jumble armpits up with the likes of you, Mr. Ho, as it is unfair to one of our most hardworking sweat gland locations.

Now I should add the obligatory trigger warning to anyone else reading this letter as depictions of gratuitous violence featuring you and the animals you slice up are forthcoming. I should also add that the inevitable vegans who will grasp at their faux-pearls at my lack-of-helping-the-cause with this open letter can, I don’t know, concentrate on their own efforts.

Now that we got that out of the way, let’s talk, Mr. Ho.

You were brought to my attention yesterday, when I innocently clicked on a link in my aggregated vegan Google alerts. The link was to an article about the success of a Brooklyn-based seitan company called Monk’s Vegan Smokehouse and because it was in the mainstream outlet Gothamist, in order for everything to be fair and balanced and potentially clickbait-y, of course conventional flesh-slingers had to be quoted as well. For the most part, your brethren were gracious and showed courtesy. Not you, Mr. Ho. When asked about the concept of vegan BBQ, you took off your pitmaster gloves (I imagine you wear gloves and I imagine you took them off with what you consider panache) and issued forth this stunning quote: “Vegan BBQ is as nonsensical of a term as pork-chop sushi or composing a garden salad out of candy bars. BBQ centers around the philosophy of contextual communal feasting. Smoked seitan is violently antithetical to that. Rather than call to mind the excessive feasting of laborers at the end of the fall harvest, it's an anemic dietary constraint. Rather than
a celebration of abundance, it's a solution to a problem no one wanted solved.”



I meant it when I said that your quote was stunning. I was, quite literally, stunned, and as someone who tracks the public response to veganism as part of my job, that is saying something. Let’s dissect this cumbersome quote line by line like one of “your” hogs, Mr. Ho, but with a lot less gristle and viscera and no unnecessary violence. Rolling up my sleeves as I have no pitmaster gloves…

Vegan BBQ is as nonsensical of a term as pork-chop sushi or composing a garden salad out of candy bars.”

Why? Because you say so? Because you lack vision and you are a traditionalist who does not allow for adaptation and re-interpretation in your worldview? Is that why vegan barbecue is, as you say, nonsensical? If vegan barbecue is indeed nonsensical, is it in the first meaning of nonsensical, “
conceived or made without regard for reason or reality” or the second, “showing or marked by a lack of good sense or judgment,” because both sound like opinion to me, not something grounded in anything resembling fact. Who knew meat-carvers could be so emotional? 

Personally, I am very grateful for people who do not accept the status quo of traditions as they were handed down and have had the confidence and the imagination to leave behind the customs that are predicated on violence and harm. Further,
are the dead animals you barbecue covered with maguey leaves before they are set aflame in a hole in the ground, Mr. Ho, as in keeping with the original tradition? My good sir, please don’t tell me you are selling something that does not adhere to that exact preparation protocol and still referring to the flesh as “barbecue”. It is an abomination! It’s an act of aggression! It is just this side of veganish! Further, I hope you don’t think that all barbecue is the same when there are regional BBQ preparations that vary throughout the southern U.S, as well as Kansas City, Texas, Maryland and Chicago-style BBQs to name a few. If there can be all these different BBQ traditions just in the U.S., why can there not be a vegan one or even several vegan ones? It sounds to me like you don’t respect the art of the BBQ at all, Mr. Ho, and are sorely lacking in creativity. You have angered the BBQ gods!

BBQ centers around the philosophy of contextual communal feasting.”

So many fancy words, two of which are completely superfluous, to convey that BBQ is about sharing a meal together. Again, can vegans not feast together? Must roasted animal flesh be present for it to be an official Ho-approved bacchanal? The BBQ gods are angered again.

I have attended and hosted many community meals wherein no animals were sacrificed, a.k.a., vegan potlucks. To me, they felt like community gatherings and feasts. Alas, no smoldering corpses were present. I suppose they are now null-and-void in your view. Please validate my existence, Mr. Ho! Though I honestly don’t know how anyone could still have an appetite with this happening near them.

“Smoked seitan is violently antithetical to that.”

Again, why is smoked seitan antithetical to a community feast? Because you say so? You seem to be fond of making blanket pronouncements and having them stand in the place of fact. Seitan, also known as wheat gluten, has its origins in the Buddhist practice of nonviolence and was first referenced in the Qimin Yaoshu, a Chinese agricultural text written in the sixth century. Surely you are not implying that Buddhists who have shared communal meals for centuries with seitan and without dead animals feasted together in a way that was and is illegitimate. That would be, at the least, culturally insensitive and at the worst, highly arrogant. Seeing as the name of your business has the word “arrogant” in it, though attached to the sensitive animals who are slaughtered for your living, I will assume it is the latter. Also, should you be the one using the word “violently” as though it’s a pejorative after having posed for the above photo?

“Rather than call to mind the excessive feasting of laborers at the end of the fall harvest, it's an anemic dietary constraint.”

Okay, I could harp again on your opinions stated as fact, but I’m getting bored with that. I hope you are, too, and will adopt a different rhetorical style. Instead, I will ask you to please consider exhibit A, B, and C before you wax rhapsodic about the experience of laborers again. Or are you only interested in the golden-hued vision you have of our glorious past? Could you be laboring under a romanticized pastoralism? I hope you will click on those links to get a better sense of the lives of modern agricultural workers. But, but, but, you and your fellow flesh fetishists might sputter, I only buy free-range, organic, coddled, massaged noble beasts who have but one bad day…To that I have to ask, Who is the sentimentalist now? And, yeah, I’m calling bullshit on that. Are the laborers treated better? Most likely, considering that working in industrial agriculture is as dangerous, low-paid, exploitative and degrading a job as they come, they are treated better. Is this the bar, really as low as they come, one that you want to really boast about vaunting over, though? 

As per the “anemic dietary-constraint,” you get points for your purple prose but I must deduct more points for your lack of vision and awareness of the abundance and variety of fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, legumes and herbs available to us. How sad for an alleged culinary artist to be so limited in inspiration and sensuality. The BBQ gods, they are pissed.

I’m running out of steam, but this last pithy remark, oh, it’s a doozy.

“Rather than
a celebration of abundance, it's a solution to a problem no one wanted solved.”

For real, Mr. Ho, are you punking us? Yes, no one wants the “problem” of needless violence and suffering solved. No one at all. No one wants the “problem” of workplace exploitation solved. No one at all. No one wants the “problems” of water pollution, water scarcity, air pollution and climate change that are inextricably tied to animal agriculture solved at all, certainly not the future generations who will inherit this mess. Why would we want any of these problems solved when we could be sitting around a smoking pig's corpse in Brooklyn and picking our teeth with small-batch dental floss, ranting about seitan and patting ourselves on the back for being awesome, if completely narcissistic and oblivious, BBQ pitmasters?

Mr. Ho, you are the living manifestation of everyone’s dinner party-meets-Portlandia nightmare that unsuspecting, unlucky-as-hell people get seated next to and are forced to hear blather on and on about your sentimental version of BBQ culture of yore and history and sociology and philosophy and veganism and whatever random thing you pull out of your hipster ass and, speaking of your hipster ass, I am betting $100 in craft beer that you have at least two or three deeply regrettable tattoos.


You had to be this cold-hearted and psychopathic looking and be photographed doing whatever sick thing it is you’re doing to this tortured body with a FREAKING CIGAR in your mouth? Because it wasn’t mean-spirited and obnoxious looking enough without the cigar. Smoked seitan did not cause this problem. Human arrogance did.

Get help. And buh bye.


Marla Rose

PS – Seriously, I mean it, get help. I am an optimist so I still believe it’s possible that you can be reformed. That may just be an anemia-fueled fanciful notion of mine, though.

You should be paying for the exorcism of my laptop I'll need to have now that I saved your demonic photos to my desktop even briefly.
PPPS – The BBQ gods really hate you.

Thursday, August 4, 2016

10 Questions: Vegan Rockstars with Lacie and Robin


Okay, so somehow this video came across my eyes and I watched the video and even though I was prepared to get all rage-y, I fell in love! (Even if I had to forgive them for their very wrong position on tempeh, though I may also have to face that only about four of us on the planet are actually fans of the stuff.) Lacie and Robin are a couple who have been together for 20 years and have gone vegan together in more recent years. They are both from comedy backgrounds and this is evident in the wonderful rapport they have together and use to tackle all kinds of subjects on their YouTube channel, from what does LGBTQIA mean exactly to simple steps you can take to help create better gun control. Oh, plus vegan videos, too! (And they’ve made a film together!) Their affectionate, warm chemistry, candor, maturity and refreshing lack of clickbait-y behavior made me so happy, especially given the often-toxic vegan representation on YouTube. We need to replace all the screechy, look-at-me vegans with more Lacie and Robins. Get off my lawn!!! Oh, and please subscribe to their YouTube channel and follow them on Facebook.

1. First of all, we’d love to hear your “vegan evolution” story. How did you start out? Did you have any early influences or experiences as a young person that in retrospect helped to pave your path?
It’s amazing as we’re thinking about it, but neither of us have early memories of being attracted to vegetarianism or veganism. We were both major animal lovers but it never occurred to us that that had anything to do with what we were eating. As adults, we dabbled in vegetarianism on and off but it wasn't until we met our friend, Barry, a vegan, who we love and admire for his all-around badassery, that we became open to it. He's always unassuming, and he never talked about being vegan when we met him. He just WAS that and we sort of watched and asked questions out of curiosity every now and again. Then, one night, we were surfing Netflix and we happened upon “Vegucated”, which we had always avoided like the plague, because we knew if we really faced the reality of what we were participating in, we wouldn't be able to eat meat anymore. But, that night, because of Barry, we were open to watching.
2. Imagine that you are pre-vegan again: how could someone have talked to you and what could they have said or shown you that could have been the most effective way to have a positive influence on you moving toward veganism?
Robin: I don't think there's any way I would have been convinced to change, except for seeing what happens to the animals. 
Lacie: Yeah, “Vegucated” was great because it lures the viewer into going along for the ride of whether people can go vegan for six weeks, and then, with a very light touch, actually, slips in two minutes of graphic imagery from a factory farm. That was that for us. We immediately looked at each other and said, “It’s over.”
3. What have you found to be the most effective way to communicate your message as a vegan? For example, humor, passion, images, etc.?
Robin: We come from a stand-up comedy background so we always like to use humor to get the point across. We’ve done a couple of comedy videos on being vegan on our YouTube channel, “Lacie and Robin”, and we’re gonna be doing them more regularly because, hey we’re vegan. That’s what we do: we talk about it non-stop. But, we aim to be “safe” vegans, who aren’t going to try to convert you and make you feel guilty. One of the missions of our channel is to build bridges for people who wanna know more about veganism without feeling judged. We see ourselves as a place for people who maybe don’t necessarily want to become vegan but are just curious about it. We wanna be clear that people don’t have to become fully vegan to make small changes in their lifestyles that help the cause.
Lacie: We believe that making people feel guilty or wrong for eating animals is counterproductive. 

4. What do you think are the biggest strengths of the vegan movement?
Lacie: The food is beginning to taste a whole lot better. There's a company named Beyond Meat now, that makes chicken that's so delicious and convincing, I actually it eat it out of the pan while I'm cooking it. That's amazing to me. This is what will begin to bring more people over. Lots of people aren't happy about the notion of hurting animals but they're not willing to give up delicious foods and they're not health nuts. Vegan "mayo" and "butter" are every bit as good as the dairy versions. Restaurants are popping up in L.A. that serve great vegan food. While we've become healthier eaters in the four years since we've become vegan, we still eat plenty of fake meats and cheeses. And, since it's all about the animals for us, we probably always will. So, these things matter to us a lot.
5. What do you think are our biggest hindrances to getting the word out effectively?
We sometimes give ourselves a bad reputation by proselytizing. Nobody wants to be told what to do. That creates resistance and fear. The first vegan video we put up was called "Why Are Vegans So Annoying?" And, one of the jokes in it is that we vegans can never seem to get through a party without bringing it up. It's practically impossible because we genuinely care about the cause. But, no one wants to hear about death, taxes or veganism. We're better off being great examples.
6. All of us need a “why vegan” elevator pitch. We’d love to hear yours.
The sacrifice is nothing compared to the reward. Living a do-no-harm lifestyle has a hundred magical consequences you can never know unless you try it. 
7. Who are the people and what are the books, films, websites and organizations that have had the greatest influence on your veganism and your continuing evolution? 
Bill Clinton's being vegan didn't hurt. And, it's totally encouraging that Scott Jurek, who won the ultra-marathon multiple times is vegan. In terms of films, we've talked a lot about "Vegucated" - a fun movie with a very light touch on the horrors of factory farming. "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead" was a great watch and a real eye-opener with regard to the health benefits of being vegan. It was really about the benefits of eating more fruits and vegetables but the outcomes for the participants, all of whom started with pretty serious health conditions, were plain undeniable.
8. Burn-out is so common among vegans: what do you do to unwind, recharge and inspire yourself?
If we ever feel the slightest temptation, we think about the animals. We also like to drink beer and watch "Full Frontal with Samantha Bee."
9. What is the issue nearest and dearest to your heart that you would like others to know more about?
Lacie: I think sometimes people think that killing a cow, pig, etc. is not such a big deal if the animal has been free-range and allowed to live a reasonably natural life. But, factory farming means that animals never have anything like the sweetness of a natural life. These are fantasies created by marketing that have no relationship to reality. This includes dairy animals who, arguably, have even worse circumstances than meat animals.

10. Please finish this sentence: “To me, being vegan is...” 
Robin: . . . all about the animals.
Lacie: . . . the thing I'll be most proud of when I die.